Guy Kawasaki talks about corporate evangelism, the evolution of social media, new social media opportunities, and how to be an effective advisor. He also shares his thoughts on how to accept and stay focused during sad and stressful events such as the Covid-19 pandemic.
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Welcome to Deliberate Leaders. I am your host Allison Dunn, Executive Business Coach and founder of the Deliberate Leaders podcast. Today we have a fantastic guest. We have Guy Kawasaki, who is the chief evangelist of Canva, which is our marketing teams absolute favorite program to use for all of our graphic design and social media aspects and anything that we have to make look pretty. And he’s also the author of Enchantments: The Art of the Start Up and the art of social media, as well as many other books. He recently launched a podcast also remarkable people and I’m super excited to pick your brain a little bit about that later. Guy. Thank you so much for joining us.
Of course. I mean, we’re all quarantine What else is there to do? It’s not like we could go surfing or anything.
That’s right, and I feel I feel Honored, I’m having great access to people who I might not otherwise have access to.
I appreciate that. I’m making the most of it myself.
Corporate evangelist. And this is a type you had while you were at Apple. And now at Canvas, so tell me, like that sounds so angelic. Tell me what you get to do.
Well, evangelism comes from a Greek word meaning bringing the good news. So what an evangelist does is bring the good news. I’ve brought the good news twice in my career, well, more than twice but at the beginning of my career, I was a Macintosh you passionless. So my job was to bring the good news of Macintosh how to increase people’s creativity and productivity. Not at the end of my career, I’ve chief evangelist for Canva. And the good news of Canva is that it has democratized design so that everyone can create great graphics and communicate better.
That’s awesome. So I’m, I’m curious if a small company safe such as myself, we’re hiring for a chief evangelist, like, what would that person be doing? What should be that person?
Well, that person would be spreading the good news of what the company does. And so I think one of the keys to evangelism is the company has to be doing good stuff. I mean, it’s hard to evangelize crap. So that’s probably 80 or 90% of the battle.
So it’s really up to the leadership to give the evangelists good things to promote, or the evangelist to find another job. Yes. Do you think that all marketers should consider themselves to be evangelists for the companies they work for?
Ah, there’s a lot of ways to unpack that question. Just considering yourself in the event as an evangelist doesn’t mean you are an event. Right? So one of the key differentiators between evangelism and traditional sales and marketing is usually an evangelist has the other person’s best interests at heart. So when I tell you to use Canva, don’t get me wrong, it’s good for me. But I also believe in my heart that it is good for you that, you know, if I totally use Canva, you will create better graphics and you will communicate better. If it’s traditional sales and marketing. It may be more about well, I need to make my quota I need to make my commission I need to make my bonus. And that’s very different. So to get back to your question, in a perfect world, yes, all marketers and all salespeople would be evangelists. But it’s one thing to say I’m an evangelist, but you have to walk the talk. And that’s a two part thing. First The product, the service does have to make the world a better place and make your customers life better. And then you have to believe that and communicate that in a manner that is not simply about your income.
That’s fair. I think that’s a good distinction that you’ve made. And in the book that you wrote the art of social media, you wrote that in 2014, I believe, yes, a lot has changed in the landscape since then, for sure. And some things don’t even exist anymore like Google, but not my minor, minor detail. But you know, it’s, it’s good to see that they can make the shift and not stick to something that doesn’t work, also. And so are there any broad cultural shifts in social media since you wrote that book that we could just come chat about for a little bit right now, like, what have you seen and what do we what do you think is coming?
Well, certainly platforms have come and gone right. So When we wrote the book, Google Plus was the rage. And to this day, I don’t understand why Google gave up on it. But that’s a different discussion. And Tick Tock did not exist back then. Right. So you know, those are two very big changes. I think social media is harder to use, and maybe less effective than ever. So, like I know, before, back when I used to tweet something, in 2014, there would be many more retweets and discussion and everything and now the volume is so high, the noise is so high, it’s very difficult to break through. And I can tell you because I am constantly marketing, my podcasts, your social media, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, that the leading source referral traffic is LinkedIn. So I think LinkedIn is maybe the most effective social media platform today for sales marketing and evangelism.
Right? I would concur for at least so we do executive coaching and leadership development and LinkedIn is our the platform where I’m connecting with true authentic audiences who need what I offer.
I agree and social media like with the whole go live now where that’s an option. Yes, I’m using video kind of just instantaneously on the spot gives everyone the show their disposal, which is funny. Yeah.
Do you have any advice as to how and when to choose to go live?
Yeah. So I go live rather randomly have it you know, it depends on how busy I am that day. Depends on How long it takes me to set everything up. I went live yesterday at 2pm or so Pacific, on LinkedIn. And I, you know, one very simple thing is that when you go live at 234 or 5pm Pacific, most of the people who are going to be watching are in Asia and India. And so you know, if your practice is for us executives probably should not go live after noon. Pacific time, thankful, you know, that’s very simple. And I’ve also it’s interesting, so when I go live, I get between 5015 thousand views. And now a view is defined this is LinkedIn a view is defined as I think watching three seconds, which is you.
I agree. Yeah,
Yeah. So yesterday, I went Live, I got I think 6000 views on LinkedIn. But I was live simultaneously I use a product called social life. And I go live simultaneously on LinkedIn, Twitter, Periscope, and Facebook. So let’s say all of that adds up to 20,000. So 20,000 people viewed it. Now, I made some really serious appeals that you know, the reason why I’m doing this and what I want you to do is subscribe to my podcast. Okay. So I can tell you with total certainty, the needle didn’t move on. And when I told 20,000 people to subscribe, so I’m not trying to be a whole downer on social media. What I’m trying to tell you is that a I don’t know how to use it anymore, maybe.
Or be is just not that effective anymore.
No, I’ll tell you one more story. I’ll tell you one more story. Before the podcast, I also did an advertising program. And the advertising program was on a platform, obviously, that ran ads. And the click through rate on my ads was about half a percent. And the people who, you know, I got the advertising from told me that that’s roughly almost two times better than their average. So they were just thrilled that I was getting this. Yeah, half a percent was twice as good as usual. So, like, that boggles my mind. So if I got, let’s say, let’s say I had a million impressions, and a half percent of a million is 10,000 10,000. click throughs. Right. Is that right? Yeah, and of those 10,000 click through, that doesn’t mean they subscribe. It just means they clicked. So, you know, divide that by, I don’t know, 10 or 20.
I, I’m telling you that I don’t know how, I don’t know how I ever dies, it works. Anyhow.
Yyet you’re having tremendous success if you were to look at followers and fans, and you know, all of those things.
I mean, you know, since we’re going on the transparency route, yeah, I would not make that claim. So, you know, my, my podcasts gets between 10 to 20,000 downloads per episode. Now, you know, I’ve been told that that’s in the top one or 2%. But you can’t make a business on 10 to 50,000 downloads, because the math is that you can $30 per CPM. So that means 30,030 bucks per thousand. So let’s say let’s take the medium number of 15,000. So 15,000 has 15 thousands, though. So you take 15, and you multiply by 30, and you get 450 bucks. 450 bucks per episode is not a business. So now I’m late to podcasting. My podcast has only 18 episodes so far. So I don’t know, the future of my podcast. If you look at people like Joe Rogan, and he gets four and a half million or something, or 5 million or whatever he gets, I honestly don’t know how I can get to 5 million. And, and now you could say, well, maybe it’s the quality of the podcasts. But if you look at my guests, I mean, show me a podcast with better guests than my You have to know Yes. Yeah. So yesterday I had Gary Vee. Gary Vaynerchuk Gary Vaynerchuk people you may have heard of like Jane Goodall, Margaret Atwood, Andrew Yang, Steve Wozniak. Let’s see Sir Ken Robinson. I mean, next week is Steven Pinker. I I’m like, I tell people, I’m NPR without the pledge drive.
You know, I don’t have the answers. I don’t know. I don’t know. If anybody tells you they know, they’re lying, either lying or they’re delusional. They don’t know.
That’s, that’s fascinating. So I feel like I created a list of questions like I wanted to, like pick your brain on and I feel that we may have just gotten the answer. But, um, I as a small company, which you know, I am and many of the companies that I coach are also small, like, I feel like we’re missing something.
I, I don’t think I don’t think you’re missing me. I think it’s just a slog now. And now much of the numbers I’m telling you was pre pandemic. So, you know, I can’t I wish I could build an intellectual case that everybody’s quarantine so they’re all sitting at home watching videos and listening to podcasts, but that’s not my experience so far. Is that yours?
No, I think people are bingeing anything on Netflix, or, or they’re binge watching the terrible news of everything that’s going on, like constantly. Yeah. And I’ve done almost none of either of those things. So yeah. Okay, so we’re not missing anything. I guess that that is super helpful to know.
Well, maybe just the two of us are missing something and everybody else knows
I’m not sure I’m super fascinated about some of the things that you get to do. And so I’m going to come back to your podcast. But before we go there, my understanding is that you serve on the board of the Wikimedia Foundation.
Unknown Speaker 14:19
Used to I’m no longer on that board. Yes. Sorry.
Um, how did you get? How did you get that opportunity? I guess is sort of well defined out.
A headhunter reached out to me. So they use the headhunter to find board members. And I’m obviously I knew what Wikipedia was, but I had no big involvement. I wasn’t a big member of the community prior to that, and that was a fascinating experience, to put it mildly.
Even if it’s proper to ask.
It’s a whole different world in Wikipedia lab. I had one idea of what they do and how it works. And it was quite different from the reality. The gist is that from the outside looking in, I thought that Wikipedia is customer was, quote unquote, mankind right that it was the universe of people seeking knowledge. But many people in the Wikipedia movement, view their customer as Wikipedia. So that it is, it is a community for the community. So the customer is the person who is editing Wikipedia, as opposed to the random person who is reading Wikipedia. And to use an analogy that would be like Apple saying, our customer is the iOS and Macintosh developer, as opposed to you and I using a phone or a computer. So that was a major, major unexpected insight for me
Yeah, I’m trying to wrap my mind around that too. Like I can apply to Apple. I’m trying to, like figure out how to have what that’d be in my business. So it would be the coaches being the customer versus the clients being the customer. And that’s it.
Yes. Okay. All right. Do you coach coaches or do you coach people? But I mean, obviously coaches are people but yeah.
I coach coaches and leaders as well, who are not coaches.
Well, but in your case, your coach clients are truly your clients, right?
Yes, absolutely. 100%.
So that’s not quite the same.
Unless, you know, if you measure your success through the impact your coaches have on people then you know, that would be closer to that model. But yeah, Wikipedia is a very it’s a unique place. Interesting. So
I guess my next question is, what causes are you are you are most important to you. So like, what are what’s driving you these days? Where are you making your impact?
Unknown Speaker 17:09
Well, Canva is one. So I’m Chief evangelist there. And we’re basically we’d like everybody to make every graphic they ever made in their life with Canva. You know, we have small goals. And I’m also a Mercedes Benz brand ambassador, which is not the worst job in the world. No, and you drive I drove Okay, it’s a great story. I drive with a class. So the a class is this, it’s not the smallest because Mercedes makes the smart car which is smaller. But if you look at the line of typical Mercedes with the with the logo, mercedes benz, as opposed to a smart car, which is sort of a sub brand, the Sadie’s line goes like ABC D. I think the next one is S and so I am driving the least expensive highest mileage Mercedes. Although I could have anyone and I have had, I’ve had, you know, s classes I’ve had the absolute top and I’m now at the absolute bottom is not the right word but you know, level entry level Yes. Which means I went to the a class because I wanted higher mileage I thought I needed to set a good example.
That’s a good choice. You can’t go wrong in a Mercedes In my opinion, I’ll take any model or entry. That’s fun. And so I’m kind of staying on the same path your advisors, you are an advisor to I assume a number of different companies and yes, my I run board of advisors and also my clients as advisors to other companies as well, yes. What advice would you give other people who are serving in that advisory capacity position on how to be effective and helpful to who you’re advising?
Oh, boy, I mean, I don’t consider myself an expert in advising. Probably the most important thing is to be blunt and honest.
It’s not necessarily a popularity contest. This doesn’t mean you should run or run people over. But it should be all about tough love. And, you know, for example, right now, some of these companies are asking me what should we do about the pandemic and I’m saying, if you have any inventory, it’s thought, turn it to cash and you know, it used to be that well, we don’t want to ruin our brands. By discounting too much, we don’t want to look like we’re having to sell stuff and all this kind of stuff, right? to tarnish our brand. And I’m telling you right now, this pandemic, this is a contest of last man standing. So yeah, you can preserve your brand right up to the point you die. That’s not a good brand. That’s not good for your brand either. So, and I think right now, I’m not sins, but the same goes all sins are going to be forgiven. That’s true, that no one’s gonna remember Oh, yeah, in the middle of the pandemic, they discounted their stuff 50% so you know, it must not be good quality. At the end of this and as Eric people are gonna say, oh, that company still here or not? That’s it. Right now for example, the the iPad and macintoshes that Apple introduced about three or four weeks ago. ago, they’re already being discounted on Amazon, right? So there was a time you’d say, Oh my god, you know, Apple can’t let that happen. They have to ensure you know, that it’s full retail price. And you know, what’s it mean when an iPad is just analysis discounted, you know, this tarnishing Apple’s brand? Well, my logic would be a different world. No one’s gonna remember that all they got to remember. is Apple still here?
Yeah, I think I think that’s really good advice. From what is going on right now is cash is king and how you market it and how you how you maintain longevity of your business is liquidating, and a lot of ways.
Very honest. I call so I in our advisory, we call it deliberate honesty. Right? Okay. So that good. You hear the things that other people aren’t willing to share with you. So let’s talk about your podcast. Okay. Pick your brain. Okay. So remarkable people and like a 62nd pitch on like how you position it, so that you know people are gonna want to just jump right off of this one go river scribe, tell me about some remarkable people.
Well, first of all, it’s remarkablepeople.com if you want to go and subscribe. So it is a collection of interviews of me with remarkable people. Now, when I say remarkable people, I’m not saying rich people or famous people, I’m saying remarkable people so you could be unknown and poor and remarkable. I don’t have any private equity billionaires on it, for example. So I have searched out and because of my work with Macintosh and my whole career, I have a lot of connections. And, and another little sub lesson is, it’s not necessarily who you know, but who knows you. So there are many people out I can reach and they’ll say, Oh yeah, you know, I’ve used the Macintosh since 1990. I know who you are and so they know who I am. But they don’t know me personally. So anyway, so I have been able to amass I’ve been able to amass a collection of interviews of remarkable people talking about their career and how they became remarkable and their lessons in life. And this literally includes Jane Goodall, Steve Wozniak Mark Margaret Atwood. I’m going to have both Christie and Roy Yamaguchi if you’re into figure skating or eating. Shawn Thompson surfer Chris burnish Palin across the Atlantic Ocean. Stephen Wolfram Stephen Wolfram is the physicist who got his PhD at 20 and the MacArthur award at 21. So I’m enabling people to draw the wisdom from these remarkable people. It’s an interview series. And if you listen to any of them, the interview leads is about 95%. And I’m about 5%. So this isn’t about a 5050 exchange where I’m trying to, you know, position myself as remarkable. This is my goal in these interviews is to bring out the remarkable genius of my guest. It is not about me.
I resonate with that.
It’s bringing out the awesomeness of who I’m speaking to. Right. So totally agree. I have I’ve just, I’ve just subscribed myself, we’re going to feature your, I think, well, I’m kind of struggling as to which one to feature because they were going to be allowed to kind of incorporate one into our deliberate leaders, which I think remarkable people are deliberate leaders also.
Which one would you suggest? What’s your pick? I know I can’t ask you. What’s your favorite?
Yeah, who? Who’s your primary listener.
My listeners are either Other true entrepreneurs who are running successful businesses or who envision that for themselves in the future?
Tech or non tech or anything?
Anything? And I’d say probably more non tech than tech.
Well, first of all, you don’t have to limit yourself to one. Okay? But, but for pure entrepreneurship, I would say is probably your Steve Wozniak interview for principles that any of your entrepreneurs can apply or marketing evangelism and sales for social psychology, you know, how to influence and persuade people, it will be Bob Cialdini. So Bob chill Dinis interview is very tactical and very useful. Awesome, and that is not one more thing. If I just touch my face, I’m not supposed to touch my face. So it’s about balance or if it’s about integrating work and life Then it would be Arianna Huffington.
Do you think it would be hard?
But you said I can have all three.
Yeah, you’re good. I listen I, at this point, you know, they’re recorded, they’re there. And my theory is by offering it to you, which literally I’m going to give you the file, right? You’re gonna, publish it. Now there are audio only Is that right? Absolutely.
Okay, cast is audio only. And then I have a YouTube channel where I our listeners do enjoy watching because that was my original platform I started on.
Okay, so I my thinking just so you know, is that I would like you to position this as bonus content. Right? So this is an extra for your subscribers. And hopefully they listen to the Steve Wozniak or Bob Cialdini or Arianna Huffington. And they say Wow, that was really a great podcast. I’ll go subscribe. So this is one of the principles of evangelism, which is you have to let people test drive your cause.
Yeah, I love that. That’s, that’s awesome.
Um, well, I am looking forward to making my way through the 20 episodes. You correct?
That’s awesome. And my next question is a little bit more about life lessons of yourself. So you published a book that I’d say is a my understanding is it’s more on the personal side.
It’s titled Wise Guy Lessons From a Life.
Favorite story that you get a chance to share in this book and can you share it here?
Yeah, so for people who have not read the book, which is most people it this is a collection of stories of my life. It’s like Chicken Soup for the Soul except all guys stories. It is not a memory. is not an autobiography, because I’m not Nelson Mandela or Mother Teresa. And I think when most people write a memoir, when most business people write a memoir an autobiography, it’s all about Yeah, look at me. I’m perfect. I did everything right, right, which is total bullshit. So it’s not like that. And I tell stories of my life that were formative in my life. And I tell you the story and then I tell you the lesson so there’s no story in there that doesn’t have a lesson. By definition, if it got in there, there’s a lesson. So favorite story. How long have we got on this podcast? Because somebody stories it takes a while to explain them.
I have you for another 26 minutes, if you will.
So my wife and I, oh, you know, my heater just kicked on. Do you hear that noise?
I heard I just heard it keep on but I’m hearing thing now.
Okay. Okay, so. So my wife and I see I think we had one child at that point. We were living in San Francisco and Union Street, which is a very nice part of San Francisco where Union Street dead ends into the Presidio. So it’s a nice place. And so one day I was out of my house in the front yard, and I was cutting our vote book, and I was trimming our book, Amelia hedge. And an older white woman comes up to me and says, Do you do lawns also? And I said to her, so because I’m Japanese, you think I’m the yard man, right? She says, No, no, it’s just that you’re doing such a great job trimming your hedge. I thought I’d ask you if you’re doing lots. And so now, there’s the first lesson in this story is, you know, beware of social profiles. Just because I’m Japanese doesn’t mean I’m the gardener. I actually own that house. So that’s there’s an even better store, or an even better lesson. So a few weeks later, my father visits me. I’m third generation Japanese American, that means he second. And so I fully expect him when I tell him this story to go off on her. But you know, how dare this white woman asked you if you’re the yard Matt, you went to Stanford, you have an MBA, you work for Steve Jobs, you know, you worked at Apple, you’ve written all these books it up. So I thought he was just going to go off on her. And he says to me, you know, some you Japanese American living on Union Street in San Francisco, the probability was that you were the yard man. So get over. That was a very valuable lesson. Basically, he’s telling me take the high road, give people the benefit of the doubt use humor. Don’t get so easily offended, you know, like, Man up basically, as a very valuable lesson and stuff. Since that day, it’s been very hard to offend me. Oh, that’s, that’s a that is a great lesson.
What a trooper for your father to point out kind of the reality of perception of it right?
So Wise Guy? Why that title?
Well, I want it, believe it or not. I have to tell you another story use of more of my 26 minutes. So about 15 or so years ago, I had a Porsche 911 cabriolet, okay. And so I’m driving in, in Menlo Park and I pull up to a stop sign, or stoplight and I look over to my left, and there’s this car with four teenage girls, and they’re looking at me laughing giggling making eye contact and I thought guy you truly have arrived. You know, even teenage girls know who you are. Because of your work at Apple. You’re writing you’re speaking your new hot, calm company, whatever. So the girl For us, he says roll down your window. So I roll down my window, she sticks her head out and she says to me, are you Jackie Chan? So, so now the lesson in that story, which is also in the book is that it was a motivating factor for me because now one of my goals in life is a Sunday Jackie Chan is at a stoplight and some girl sticks her head out and ask Jackie Chan Are you Guy Kawasaki? So I’m telling you this story because the first title I had for this book was are you Jackie Chan. My publisher didn’t like that. So then the second title I had was, let’s call it Miso Soup for the Soul like Chicken Soup for the Soul. Only Japanese style and they didn’t like that either. So finally we came up with wiseguy.
That’s great. I think Miso Soup for the Soul actually is super. Show that cover to see if it sells more.
Yeah, that’s too late. Now.
That’s great. And what would you say is your most meaningful lesson that you’ve learned in the last decade?
Oh, man, I stopped learning after a while.
I don’t believe that’s true. That’s a complete reinvention. That’s true. So probably.
I think, and I listen, I didn’t, this is retroactive. It’s not like I planned it. But I took up surfing at the age of 61. And let’s just say taking up surfing at 61 is a little late, roughly 50 years too late. And so then I took it up because my daughter loves surfing so I took up surfing so I could do something with her and now she’s so much better if she doesn’t serve with me, but that’s a different discussion. But anyway, so I think that one of the things I learned is that learning is a lifelong pursuit. It doesn’t begin an end in formal school. So if I can learn to surf, not that I’ve that great yet, but if I can learn to surf at 61, it basically is a message that you can learn your whole life. You don’t have to, you know, it doesn’t end when you graduate college. And I think many people think that learning is a formal process of institutional education. And it’s just not true. Arguably, learning really starts when you leave educational institutions.
I 100% agree with that statement. I really, I very much so especially in today’s morning structure. Yeah, we have here.
What kind of structure I’m sorry you broke up?
The educational structure that we have learned to test.
Well, yeah, so some very interesting things are happening because of this pandemic that 10 years from now, if I’m still alive, I’m gonna look back and say, Wow, that was the day that, you know, this major change happened, right? So, so one major change is that the UC schools have, for the next two years, they’re abandoning the LSAT, and GPA, as you know, the major ways of deciding on admissions. So this could be the death of the LSAT is standardized testing for college admissions, which I think is a good thing. And that’s gonna be a very, very interesting outcome of the pandemic.
Wow, that’s an interesting observation. I can’t imagine that but you know what? I mean, if it doesn’t serve a purpose, it doesn’t serve a purpose, right?
Yeah, and I don’t I don’t think there’s any proof that scoring higher on the LSAT indicates that you’ll do well in school, much less Life.
Yeah, I do agree with that as well.
So first of all, I just want to tell you that I really appreciate you kind of have this infectious positive energy. And I can see that you bring that to all the work you you’ve created. So that’s honorable, and I appreciate that. I know that along with myself, many of us are kind of in this like devastated, uncertain state of what’s going on here in the world. Yeah. What advice would you give to people who want to make a positive difference? out of this for themselves, was just staying at home and staying stuck.
First of all, I don’t want you to think that I don’t have fears and doubts because I just hide it better than most people. Okay. And anybody who tells you, yeah, anybody who tells you they don’t have any doubts and fears You know, that’s what I call the Trump syndrome.
If you’re not scared and fearful, you’re an idiot. If you’re not scared right now, about your life or your career, something’s wrong with you. I mean, literally, this is an IQ test on many levels. And though in California, you’re supposed to be in quarantine and only doing essential travel and all that kind of stuff and, and I love to surf, I surf every day if I could, right. And I look at these surf cameras, and I see 5060 people surfing out there together. And you look at that and you think like, what, what is going through their brain? Like? Do you think that if some of them are closer than six feet to each other, you know, which is really stupid, but do they think oh, maybe As soon as the Coronavirus is expelled from one surfer, the ultraviolet and salt air kills it. So you can you know, like, What’s going through your brain and you know, a very good test for this is if you’re out whatever you’re doing hiking, biking, surfing, hanging out if someone was smoking and you can smell the smoke. I think that’s a pretty good proxy for what if I could smell the smoke, then probably the airborne virus could also get to me, right? I mean, doesn’t that make sense? So you can’t tell me that those people sitting out there if one of those surfers were smoking I realized this kind of fictitious because it’s hard to smoke when you’re surfing in the water, but if that person were smoking, you would smell it. So if you can smell it, you could get infected. So anyway, so you got this is for going way down the path there.
I think you just have to Like, live every day, and one of the things I learned is that things are never as good or as bad as they see. And right now, probably things are not as bad as they seem. But there are times where, you know, the euphoria is also you need to back that off to is probably not as good as it seems either. So, and then you just then you just, well, one good default is just listen to your wife because usually your wife is right, that that would be such a smart man.
Odds are your wife is right. Yeah. That’s the lesson in a pandemic, listen to your wife.
That’s awesome. That is such good advice.
I have I have kind of gone through all of my initial questions you’ve shared more than I expected. Is there anything ask that you would like to add?
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