Are you ready to be a more effective salesperson or sales manager?
In this interview Stephan Schiffman covers everything from collecting leads, to placing cold calls, to managing the first meeting, to getting the second meeting, to managing the entire sales process.
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Hi, welcome to Deliberate Leaders. I am your host Allison Dunn, Executive Business Coach. Today and I’m super excited to bring to you our guest. His name is Stephen Schiffman. He is the author of cold calling techniques that really work. And it’s the seventh edition. So we’re gonna speak on that today. Stephen is also the author of 25 habits of highly successful salespeople. He’s trained more than a half a million people in over 9000 companies. And that’s incredibly impressive. So wealth of knowledge here with us today. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Stephen.
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. I appreciate that.
Absolutely. So I figured we’ll just get right into kind of the whole like cold calling. I know that people really either embrace it and do it really well, or they do it really poorly. And so I’m hoping based on kind of the What you’ve all heard about? Could you give us some examples of techniques that people don’t do well, and then an example of how to actually do it really well.
The real key, though, about cold calling on the phone, but it’s also in sales is anticipating what the objections are going to be no words. When I started Google back a long time, I recorded virtually every cold call that I made. And what happened was you play those back and all of a sudden realize you’re saying the same thing every time. So you need to know how to turn that around. And I learned by doing it, how to turn that around. That’s the whole thing. It’s the railing for conversation that the other person is going to have. In other words, in their mind, they’re going to respond to you. In kind anticipated, it’s going to be an objection. So you said yourself, so what am I going to say to that and the salesperson actually doesn’t know what they say is Oh, okay. And the hang up shelf people should never use the word Okay, that ends the conversation. They need to know how to turn that around but they don’t. So the call just dies.
I think you’ve brought out a great point of recording your calls so that you know exactly where you’re fumbling yourself and then going what could I have said instead and just that incremental improvement is huge.
For sure you repeat you listen to your client list almost 400 calls but I still hear just to him my wife and I we sat there with a tape recorder which of course nobody has anymore. Just listen to the call the call the call. And it dawned on me one day I was giving a presentation and it dawned on me that everybody says the same thing. That go not interested, too busy call me back way. It’s the same stuff all the time. There was really weren’t creative answers to why I wouldn’t see it. Nobody said Just like ice cream instead, that never came up. So if that never came off, you’d have to say, let’s do it. The ice cream store never came up. What came up? Was it too busy? What came up was they’re out of town. What came up was call me back in six months or six years. That’s what comes up and sales reps don’t hear that. There’s they’re too busy anticipating other things.
So what are some of the techniques you’d suggest on how to overcome that? How do you get better at that?
Right? Well, if you look at it, there’s an opening for you stay. There’s their response. That’s what they say. There’s a turnaround. That’s what you say, and then get the point. So there’s four steps. What happens is the opening Lisa, the turnaround, right to go to their response, right there. If you can’t turn that around, you’re going to lose it because you have to be railing. So what I’ve learned is that, really, if you just ask the question, like Well, I’m Just curious. How did you do that before? He I’m just curious, when did you do that? I’m just curious, what did you bring in to do it, whatever, it doesn’t make any difference. All of a sudden, the conversation shifts into a different place. It’s called a pattern interrupt. And everybody can experience that if you’ve ever had a fight with your significant other and had an issue, and all of a sudden this thing is going on, and then the dog barks or the kid cries, the conversation starts in a different way. And that’s really what you’re doing. You’re just starting a conversation over again, in a different place.
Can you give me an example of how, you know when you initially make the call, you often get like the gatekeeper. Right. Right. So what’s the best getting beyond the gatekeeper script?
Okay, gatekeepers are funding that’s their job, right? So you got to give them that credit. That’s what they do. What I’ve learned When somebody says to me, Well, you know, someone saw it wasn’t available or whatever they say, I guess I can you and I need it stops, it stops all conversation, because no one ever says that to them. Can you remind me? No one says that. So inevitably they say, Well, no, you gotta speak to so and so. Oh, is he there? Now you got a whole conversation. But if I say to reception is can you and I mean, they’ve never heard that again a pattern interrupt that is not what they expect. No one expects that.
How often do they meet with you? Does anyone ever take you up on that?
Oh, no, no. They’re like, Oh, no, I want them to meet with me. That’s the last thing I want. I want them to say let me get ahold of john. Jeff chill. No, john. Well, yes, sir. That’s what I want. But when you say that they’re thrown off completely taken by surprised there’s nobody says that. Yeah.
I love that. Um, One of the things that we were talking before we started the podcast was How can a salesperson like differentiate themselves? And I think that that’s something that’s a great topic to hit on next year.
If you think about it, short of wearing a funny hat salespeople all the same. And they act the same, I don’t care male, female. So you say to yourself, what is either say, well, so the average person goes in on a sales call, and starts out by saying, Let me tell you about my product, or what painting nonsense. I’m doing this a long time. And I would set somebody come in and say to me, Mr. Schiffman, you have pain. I said, No, I don’t need you all. You have nothing in vain. You just don’t know. I said you’re becoming the pain. So as for in this conversation? Really, sales is not about finding a solution. It’s not finding a problem. It is in fact, asking people what they do, how they do it, when they do it. Where they do it, who they do it with why they’re doing it that way, and then helping them do it better. Because everybody is selling a commodity. Everything is a commodity, there’s always somebody else selling it to and with the internet cheaper or come from a different place, and you have to differentiate by showing that your product, what you’re selling is going to help them do what they do better. Most people don’t do it. They just say, well, I’ve got this great product. Here’s my pencil. Well, but everybody has a pencil. Well, this pencil black. Well, that doesn’t really mean much does it? But that’s what most salespeople do. They try to say, Well, I have it in blue. Wow, I’ve got a good toe. So it really is showing that it can help somebody do what they do better. And I’ve worked with 9000 companies and the companies that have been successful really had that ability to explain.
Yeah, in in A lot of the cold calling that I’ve personally experienced, there’s a couple of tips that I learned early on and you cover in your book. So one of them is having mirror, make sure that you’re smiling, recognize that your energy is coming through the phone. Standing up is another big one for me if I have a really important one to make, I make sure I’m standing. What are some of the other tips that you recommend for people?
That lists a number of things, the mirror, I like a timer so that I know how long I’ve been on. You don’t want to extend closer to three, four minutes.
I like record keeping everything with knowing your numbers, sales, it’s a ratio of numbers game. I mean, if it’s a numbers game, then just go out on the street and one by one by one by one by and eventually someone can buy something, which in fact is retail selling. I mean, retail is standing there with a storefront and saying, hey, you want to buy this stapler? Well, yeah, sure. I guess if I needed it, I buy it. But the numbers People that you have to go through. If you’re, if you understand ratios, and how the ratio works for you, for example, no other company but I don’t. We knew that every sales, every sales call it is 22 sales calls amounted to a sale. We knew it was going to be 22. We got a sale. We knew that the whole sales department knew it. So when they hit 22, about this, we knew we knew it before they were out the door.
Is that is that just an average for that particular company or just an industry wide?
My company? My company, so I knew what it was. Here’s the issue. The issue is sales managers. In force, they don’t teach. They don’t teach they enforce somebody say well go out make 50 calls. What for? What is 50 calls? Do you have to know what it’s going to produce? And most people, sales managers and sales reps may fail. No, they just go out like I had an Calling today. He says, Hey salespeople, I want you to either see or call 70 people a week. So I said to him for what I mean appointments, if I was to get from that, he didn’t know, well, then they don’t know.
I am. I always think about to understand what is the intent of actually making a cold call. So you’re gonna pick up the phone, right? So for what, and I think you’re getting to it and I just want to make sure like is the purpose of the cold call to actually get someone to buy something on the phone?
Just to get an appointment to meet with them. Now there are reasons where they’re telling salespeople do sell on the phone. But for the average salesperson is to get in front of somebody and understand what that person is doing this. Everybody’s buying your product. And I’m buying from you, which is by way very interesting question. If you were to go in, so he won’t do it. But if you were to go in and say to somebody, I know you’re buying pencils, how come you’re not buying from me? You’ve got a very interesting conversation.
Say these they don’t know the answer. They really don’t know the answer is that somebody else is down on who the right person is.
And is it always at I mean, is there ever a time where it is okay to sell right on the phone? Is it just in the course.
Of course, I teach I’ve written You know, I’ve written 70 bucks. So of the seven meter, a couple that are just written for telesales. And that’s a whole other topic, how to come across properly and separate yourself out that way too.
And when you were talking about it’s like it’s not a numbers game. It’s the ratios. What is the most effective way someone can improve their ratios, the quickest practice, practice, practice, because practice does make perfect. Yeah.
No, I again, I worked with a group this morning and I said, Okay, where’s the script that we do to use a script? Where’s the script? Oh, wow, huh? No, that’s the whole point. We did it last week. You got to have the script. Now. Where is it? Right. So you can’t read it can’t read it. It’s not what fudging can’t do that. You got to know what you got to say.
I am a big fan of scripting out exactly what you do want to say. So that’s anything that that’s a factor of success. Okay, cool. Is there any online communities where you can submit your cause to be critiqued? Is that something that you do as a service? I’m just curious or no of one.
Well, I know I don’t know. When I do coach individuals. I do coach companies. I do a lot of work in individually with people, and what I find is they they think they know. And even when you’re done, they think they know. So a lot of it is just rejected, which is too bad to read that book you have as five 6 million copies in print all over the world. And yet I’ll go no go you know, I read your book, but in doing so, interesting. shelf people don’t read books. You can’t say it doesn’t work if you haven’t actually implemented everything in it. Right?
I would, I would, I would share that when I moved into a new market. In launching a business one of the first techniques that I went to was hiring a telemarketing company right to do these cold calls for me. And I would say they were probably exceptional cold callers. It was the list that was bad. So stupid. Yes. And so what is the best way to gather a list that leads to productive calls.
Okay, I answer things pretty straight. There isn’t very.
I mean, there really isn’t. You could go buy a list, but it’s crap. You could do it yourself. And you’ll end up digging, digging, digging, digging to corn, you know, that’s what’s gonna happen because eventually there is no way you’ve got to just figure out by calling and asking and saying, well, don’t try to go. It’s not that easy, cannot find you never on time, you can’t find a good list. If you Your life is not gonna happen. Lists are crap, just by definition, because as soon as you’ve got it, it’s outdated.
Truly, what has so when you say you can’t. So what? What works for people to work from a list that does create successful leads for us?
Okay, yeah, that’s a referral. However, again, people don’t ask for it. Most sales reps will not say Mr. Jones. Got a good job. Finger good. Is it somebody else I should talk to say? Don’t say it. So we don’t get the referral, even though they could get it, they will say.
And a referral can come from someone who’s saying no to you, but saying, Do you know someone else? Right? And that’s it. Yeah.
Anybody, but think this way, this is how I did it. When I started, I really had nothing to tell you the truth. So I went to a bank, a branch of a bank that actually no longer exists in nursing. And I said to them, sales training, and they go, Wow, we got this couple thousand bucks. We do. Yeah. Okay, let me do the work here. And I did. Now I took that branch and went to another branch. And that branch was another branch and that branch, but I was gonna have the region. I had the country, I get that oil industry. I was the largest trainer, and my company was in the oil industry in the world, because I just took from one company, right? That’s the way you sell You just figure out who using your product and get one. And then what? Why are you reinventing that you know who you find your products?
Yeah, sure. Are you? Are you a fan of utilizing LinkedIn as resources for your connection?
Yeah, I would list anything that works. Whether it’s LinkedIn or Facebook, or anything that makes sense, I would definitely use it. And I do. I usually also Chamber of Commerce lists, I mean, anything that you hands on, but the point is, don’t count on it.
That’s fair, because you kind of have to do everything to figure out what actually works.
Have you had any specific techniques to nurturing the online relationship to actually getting permission to have the phone call? Any tips on that? Really?
So I’m going into LinkedIn and you try to connect with someone through that platform? How do you nurture it to a phone call?
Wow. All right. And now right back, right back. I know right back. And in theory that leads to something reality. Probably doesn’t say it though. So I don’t know that anything you do, except picking up the phone really does it? Um, I know voicemail is terrible. Nobody answers the phone anymore. Email is bad because everybody is inundated with email. So what I use is Federal Express. I use the postal office, I mailed things because we broke at mail. No one gets a letter.
I’m a fan of mail. I’m a fan of hidden handwritten letters to so yeah, right. They’re very effective.
I write a letter and say, Hey, this is what I do.
So let’s talk about so you’re doing cold calling, asking for like the opportunity to follow up in exactly how do you actually and I call it sacred. The deal, but it’s really actually to get the meeting, right. So once you have successfully had the opportunity to have the meeting, and you walk in, what are the first things that you would typically say to kick it off in and move it to conversion or sale?
Okay. I think, remember we talked about the differentiation. So if you’re going to sit there and settings, the gentleman’s I’m sure you’re in pain. You’re not going anyplace, I’m sure you have a problem. You’re not going anyplace. Because you don’t know that. You can’t say that. So I don’t say that doesn’t work. As far as I’m concerned. What I do is I sit down and I say, Mr. prospect, before we start, before we get into our meeting, would it help if I just tell you something about me and my company? inevitably, they say yes, because it’s the non threatening question. And so I go in and get a little piece about what we’ve done and how we do it. And I know Just curious as I do sales training. Have you done simple training here? That’s it. I’m in. Yes, no, no. Oh, why not? Yes. Really? What have you done? That’s all I gotta ask. I don’t have to go through all this nonsense. Because they either have done it or they haven’t. Well, you find your pencil striking. Same question. Why? Same question. seem there’s always a reason why people have done what they’ve done. We don’t ask those questions, we just assume there must be some deep dark secret. And the other thing is, that is what I call the power of 12. a buyer potential buyer. In fact, think about it for yourself. When you bought your home. You asked other people about it. He said, it’s just like here. What’s my car like? I mean, everybody knows that. So there’s a power 12, a decision maker, whatever you want to call actually will talk to 12 other people before making final decision.
I didn’t realize it was that many people. That’s a lot of people.
That’s right. It’s a lot, which is why you don’t get to anybody. Except you. Thank you. Oh, you’re speaking all right person. No, even the owner of the biggest company. We just work with big insurance, right? major, major insurance company. They had 14, McKenzie. consultants surrounding this guy every minute of the day. He didn’t say anything. Maybe right.
That’s funny, actually. Yeah. I mean, really, what I’m not I don’t know what happened.
For just for kind of, just generally, what are some of your favorite probing questions that you like to ask? I know, I know. You’re sort of like the you know the why and how?
Why did you do it? Why did you do that? Why don’t you move here? From sample you’re where you are. I asked you that then I guess you did. Don’t like Firstly, personally, where are you? Yeah, now I put a pursuing Why? Because it doesn’t make sense. Why there. But you know the reason, right? You have a reason you have a reason that you’re in the location that you’re in. I have a company I work with northern Canada is beyond cold. They’re there. I got there I said to her committee. Why are you here? There’s nothing here. Well, there actually is there actually. That’s a whole story. And he told me the story of how he ended up in this one particular place in town. That’s interesting story. Cool.
And so we know sometimes the sales cycle can last a really long time. So how do you know when, when long, longer the sale takes you out of its normal state? sales cycle, the less likely it is to close. So if your sales cycle is a year, that’s it, you can try to condense it. But let’s say it’s a year. If it goes past the year, it’s over. But sales reps don’t seem that they carry please for five years. Oh, isn’t that close? No, it’s not. Are you serious? Oh, it’s a billion dollar sale, you’ll be dead first. I had a guy call me for real. And he wanted me to change orders. He said, We Sir, I said my lease is up for 10 years. He said, Can I call you then? Sure. And you’re calling. If I’m alive. I’ll answer the phone.
As you’re alive, feel cool.
Any tips on how to speed it up? Or is it is it just so you’re there? you’re practicing interruptive marketing. If you’re cold calling is interrupted walking, they won’t pick it up. Now you can get them to think about it. Maybe, but you can’t count on that unless there’s a second meeting. And that’s where it breaks down. Sales breaks down between the first and second meeting.
And it’s because nobody thinks the set of that second meeting they go up 10 weeks.
That is a really good point. I think that if there was one particular tip is that once you’ve had that first meeting, like what is the second step and always making sure you know, where your next move is? from there? For sure.
Right. Right. Right, you know, and I can tell about their appointment book, or Outlook or whatever. If they have enough things in the pipeline, that our second step, the second step, that’s all matters. The first meeting doesn’t matter. So what? So you met this person? So what nice, okay, what do you do next? No idea. I’m tough. I’m tough as a sales manager, but I had people who really do well.
Yeah. I think I think if we were to ask, so what about you know where it goes next? And just to ourselves? It’s a it’s a powerful question. And if you don’t have the answer, then you don’t know.
Just right. That’s exactly right. That is the answer if you go someplace. Yeah.
So let’s talk about the evolution of cold calling, I think your first edition so you’re in your seventh edition of this particular this particular book. First Edition was in 1987, hold it, hold it up a little higher, so people can see it and you see it, okay.
I started okay, what happened that that book, I was in business for five, six years. And I said, I want to write a book. And I knew cold calling. So I started writing a book then, but I didn’t know how to write a book. So I did what what I think makes sense. I bought a book on how to write a book. Absolutely. Why would I reinvent it? Then I bought a book how to get published. I didn’t take much I got published was that a guy rather interesting? I got 500 bucks ago. And that book sold out. But I monitored every city where was being sold. I called. I said, I said, about us, I said, bought that book sell. And it continued, and it sold and it became bestseller. It’s all there. It’s all been it’s all and it still sells in different ways. But it really came about as me trying to do a better job. And just having the book that said, hey, I’ve done this. Nobody cared except the book. So then the second book in a third book.
So in all of the couple of decades since you’d originally written it What has changed? Oh, these were decades Oh, sorry. years, few years, a few years since 1987.
What’s changed in cold calling.
You know what’s interesting? I’m getting close to Now, it’s really kind of strange to redo it the way it always was. Because it’s the same call, except there was this period where everybody went off electronic. It isn’t, it’s not electronic, it really is person to person stuff. And selling is still person to person stuff unless you want to just buy it on eBay, you know? Yeah. So you’ve kind of Dude, I’m getting more calls from or people saying, Can you help us make appointments, set appointments, either for electronic file up? Right, like, demonstration, or an appointment to actually see people, but it’s going backwards because people realizing, you know, you can’t sell over the internet lost. That’s your business. That’s the way you decide to do it.
And what would you say are the top challenges of the salespeople that you train? What are the most common challenges?
That’s interesting. Number one, separating yourself, differentiate yourself. Number two, knowing what to ask and when to ask him. So when he asked the questions they don’t know. Number three, understanding that objections where they come in, in the sales cycle have different meanings. So if someone says I’m not interested in the beginning, that doesn’t mean I’m not interested. But at the end, it could. Alright, because it’s a different thing. They’re more educated. And probably the last thing all said and done is they don’t get up in the morning.
They just don’t have to tell me what you mean.
No, they don’t Well, they don’t get up.
Next week, they’ll go out Christmas. No one goes out. No, they don’t. Well, why would they? Why would you want to go out in the cold if you don’t have to? I remember when I first started, I it was terrible. That was in New York City. It was terrible. It was raining. So I decided, well, I’ll go into movies. I’ve never done that. Let’s just go over to the No. And there. There were briefcases there. Every other sales rep, the New York City decided the same thing.
So I walked out, I said, I’ll never do that again.
So not getting up to just do it, essentially.
Yeah. Okay, stop. whining, just do what you were talking about the fact that, you know, in the few years since you first wrote the addition and kind of escalated up in innovation and technology, is there a is there. Is there more conversion when you have a face to face even if it is video like we’re doing right now? Or?
Yes, I think I think I don’t know that I can prove it or not, but I think there is. Okay, I think this time Contact is better than no contact, no eye contact. I think it’s less than if you went and met rich person is, is there any resistance that you think people have from meeting by video versus just on the phone just out of curiosity? And how do you overcome that if you know that this would be more effective?
I don’t think salespeople know what to do.
I really don’t I think the average sales person I mean, the average sales person just is glad they’re there. I don’t have a plan. I really don’t I say them. I talk about the gap. How much money you make last year. I’m just wondering, you want to make this a gap? Are you going to do it while I’ll sell more? That’s not an answer. That’s a sell more what are you going to do? How are you gonna do that? You worked hard last year. Oh yeah, ball, toe What do you do now? You don’t know. And going back to what I said about sales managers, sales managers are enforcers, they’re not teachers. So they can tell you 20 calls a day doesn’t mean to say what is typically the first thing that you’ll do when you work with a company.
First thing is I look at the pipeline, I have very strict guidelines as to what the pipeline is, I mean, incredibly strict. And you can vary so I get it clean. I clean it, knock everything out, start again, build it back. Second thing is now building back I would get appointments or how we’re going to do that. And then the sales call. So there are three kind of things. The last thing I do the fourth is how are you as a salesperson and a manager, going to separate yourself out from everybody else? Who selling the same thing you sell? Because there’s somebody selling the same question.
Where do you work with them to help to figure out what that unique you know what differentiates them or is that Yeah, you do.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But most times, they don’t know they really don’t I do work with lubricant companies, oil companies. There isn’t much difference. In fact, I tell you this truth is if they run out of lumber and they go to the next guy, if you don’t know difference commodity, yeah, yeah, really? No, it’s the same. It’s got to be the same. See, the problem is, most products have to be the same. They is they provide the service you’re buying. So if you’re buying a lubricant, it’s got a loop, right? It’s gonna work. Well, you won’t buy it. It’s all the same. So how do you separate them? You’ve got to start to understand what they’re trying to accomplish. That’s really what the game is, what do they need? What are you trying to accomplish?
So, shifting the conversation around what sets you apart is really understanding what you need.
Oh yeah, it’s asking people what they do. I like doing the whole thing. But yeah, that’s and I talked about that. I am boringly the same by the way. I have always been. It’s a same message. I don’t vary that much. I was in Sweden a couple weeks ago, and over 500 remember and I do the same assets in Sweden I get to know Asia are doing in Singapore, the same sub is saying boringly the same message.
Fair enough. I like the fact that when you first start working with a company, you talked about cleaning the pipeline and making sure that it was a reality based you know, right where it’s moving. Can you can you tell me, what is some of the things that you would remove like someone or like that is just never moving forward? Is it based on like, I don’t even want upset.
It’s never moving for it hasn’t moved forward. But I do. Here’s what I do. It’s so simple. I wish I wish more people. When I go in therapy started working, let’s say this is a prospect, right?
I do that on paper.
56789 dots meaning weeks. It’s still in the same place though with the naki. Can you read it? Dump it. You can. Yeah. Yeah. If you can’t read, because I covered it with these ridiculous thoughts.
If you can’t read or write, or if you use posted, which is my favorite is a post, post it. People sometimes use posted for that. If you leave it up to all this dries out, and it falls down. So it’s self correcting.
Oh, that’s interesting. That’s an interesting way to look at it to that. It is not there. It does.
But of course they use computers. So now they have CRM, and it has been there forever, ever. And it doesn’t go away. And you got to say, okay, when did you first do that person? Oh, seven months ago, right when you speak to them? Oh, seven months ago.
That’s funny. I use, I’d move the computer but I use that post. It’s for my planning. Yeah, we should pitch 3am about creating like, what is your sales cycle and then the glue is disappear over time.
It dries out the glue on the backdrop.
Looking at RLS out of curiosity, when you go in and help someone clean up their list, how much garbage how much weight are people putting on things that just aren’t real things?
There’s none of this stuff started. Yeah, 50% without even starting and they cry. I’ve got people crying. I’ve had people call me from 25 years ago. Literally, also, you know, I use that now as a manager. But 25 years ago, you made me cry.
Which I did.
Yeah. bringing them down to reality. It’s a hard place to be.
It’s very tough to go on a meeting they did. So it’s, it’s a delicate balance, which I have no interest in balancing.
I just want to quickly check in I’ve sort of I’ve covered all of my initial questions. Is there anything any advice that you would like to give our listeners of something that I’ve not yet asked?
You? Sure. Be real about what you’re doing? being real? Is it really gonna happen? Are you just kidding yourself at the end of the year, you know, oh, what happened? You know, you’ve got to follow through and be consistent and persistent in what you’re doing. It’s consistent and persistent. That’s really the key to success.
I like that be real.
Stephen, what is the best way for people to either follow you or connect with you online?
We have a podcast webcast that we post every day. Great. What’s the cost? I’m sorry, what is the podcast called? Oh, mastermind sales. And Tony Robbins may be that man so I stuck that up there. So I don’t want to work for him. So mastermind sales, which is a podcast and a podcast. You can see it’s five to 10 minutes long. That’s it. No interviews no people there I do. I want them I want you to get it out to get it out. I don’t want to take 40 minutes to tell her everything. That website book is so much things that I’ve done on the web, and if you want to.
Awesome, that’s fantastic. So I was going about it I’d write it down master selling.
Yeah, Master Sales.
Master Sales is your podcast. Fantastic. Stephen, thank you so much for your time today and your tips and tricks. I highly recommend his cold calling techniques that really work and keep it real folks. So, with that, Stephen, thank you so much.
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
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