What does it take to be a world class business coach or mentor?
In this episode, you’ll learn specific techniques that Marshall Goldsmith uses to coach some of the world’s top executives. You’ll also discover Marshall’s personal and professional mindset, which has led to massive results and abundance for himself and his clients.
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Welcome to the Deliberate Leaders Podcast. I am your host, Allison Dunn and executive business coach. Today we have the awesome author and executive coach Marshall Goldsmith. Marshall is consistently ranked among the top executive coaches in the world and I’m super just honored to be able to have you halftime with you today. Some of his other accolades include her
Marshall Goldsmith 0:30
Thank you for asking me.
Allison Dunn 0:32
Absolutely My pleasure.
You are the only person in the world to win the thinker’s 50 Award for the number one leadership thinker twice. That’s actually hard to say. He is also a professor, speaker and author and his books include one of my top book recommendations which is what got you here won’t get you there as well as Mojo triggers and I think dozens and dozens of others which I could go on. So what do you 141 total? That’s incredible. Marshall, thank you so much for doing it.
Marshall Goldsmith 1:11
I am six bestsellers, and the other 35 were purchased by my mother, my father and assorted relatives.
We have to count on family to come through for us to make us look good. That’s awesome. Fantastic. And I one of the things that I love most about your book, what got you here won’t get you there is it’s so incredibly relevant around the things that we need to learn to stop doing. Would you agree, right?
Yeah. Yes. Peter Drucker taught me that. He said, we spend a lot of time teaching leaders what to do. We do not spend enough time teaching leaders what to stop. He said half leaders admit they don’t need to learn what to do. They need To learn what to stop, well, that one suggestion led to the book. That’s fantastic. So when. So when you think about things that leaders need to stop doing, what are the top four habits four or five habits, that you would say that they just need to just stop doing?
Marshall Goldsmith 2:19
The one number one in the book, I was interviewed in the Harvard Business Review and ask, what’s the number one problem of all the successful people you work with over the years? And the answer was winning too much. And what does that mean? It’s important, we want to win if it’s meaningful, we want to win if it’s critical, we want to win. If it’s trivial, we want to win. No, it’s not worth it. We want to win it anyway. Winners love winning. So in the game of life, everyone I work with is a winner. Right? Most people you work with are winners. It’s hard for winners not to constantly win. So a case study I use in my classes. You want to go to dinner at restaurant x, your husband, boyfriend or partner wants to go to dinner restaurant, why? Have a heated argument. You go to a restaurant, why it’s not your choice, the food is awful and the service is terrible. Option A you could critique the food point out your partner was wrong and this mistake could have been avoided and only you listen to me, me, me. Or option B, shut up, eat too stupid food, try to enjoy it and have a nice evening. What would I do? What should I do? Almost all my clients, what would I do? I would take the food. What should I do? Shut up. Well, it’s very hard for smart, successful people not to constantly go through life winning. You know, I have a Dartmouth I was teaching my class and I gave this example you have a hard day at work. You come home your wife, husband or partner says I had such a hard day. If we’re not careful. We say you had a hard day. You had a hard day. Any idea what I had to put up with today? Do you think you had a hard day? We’re so competitive, we have to prove we’re more miserable than the people we live with. I gave this example a young guy raised his hand He said I did that last week. So I asked him what happened. He said, my wife looked to me, she said, Honey, you think you’ve had a hard day is not over.
I think we’ve all heard. Second one is adding too much value. Okay? I’m young, smart, enthusiastic, you’re my boss, I come to you with an idea. You think it’s a great idea rather than just saying great idea. Our natural tendency is to say, well, that’s a nice idea. Why don’t you add this to it? The problem is the quality of the idea that may go up this much my commitment execution may go down that much. Why? It’s no longer my idea, boss. Now it’s very hard for smart successful people not to constantly go through life, adding too much value. And a lot of the bottom problems revolve around classic challenges the smart people have, um, smart people in your life you’ve taken test after test. After test, it’s very hard not to prove how smart we are over and over again. We’ve been reinforced for doing this thousands of times in our lives. It’s hard to stop doing.
Allison Dunn 5:14
I would agree with that on. Okay, so so it’s adding too much value being too smart winning. And what would be your fourth one? Would you say?
Marshall Goldsmith 5:25
Too much judging,
Allison Dunn 5:26
Marshall Goldsmith 5:28
Yeah, too much judging other people. One thing I always try to teach is, you know, and it’s good for family, even more than the work, help more judge lists.
Allison Dunn 5:38
I completely agree. How. So I think I almost feel like some of those overlap a little bit. And so when you’re trying to encourage someone who likes to win who’s highly competitive, who likes to add that extra value, like when what’s the balance of that for someone and how can we self recognize when it’s happening because I think it’s almost a fifth a logical thing you’ve seen in someone else that maybe we often don’t recognize.
Marshall Goldsmith 6:07
Well, very simple. I’m not going to give you an answer. I’m going to give you a question about that before speaking, breathe, read. And just ask a question. Is it worth it? See, one of my coaching clients was JP Gardner, he was a CEO collect GlaxoSmithKline. So I said, What did you learn from me as your coach that helped you the most? He said, You taught me one lesson helped me be a better leader and have a happier life and said, What was it? He said, before I speak, breathe? And just say, is it worth it? And he said, as the CEO of GlaxoSmithKline, 50% of the time, I have the discipline to stop and breathe and say, is it worth it? What did I decide? Am I right? Navy, is it worth it? No. So for nine years, I trained the animals in the US Navy, what’s the first thing I teach the animals? When you get that star? your suggestions become orders, animals, don’t give suggestions. Mm hmm. orders. You give a suggestion or Oh, yes, sir, then go do it. Well, it’s very important to breathe and say, is what I’m saying really worth it? As opposed to that instinct to just talk?
I think in all circumstances, before we ever respond to anything, we should all just breathe and think, is it worth it? Even if you’re not even adding value, right? It’s just a good life lesson in my in my book triggers, I have a great question to ask before you do with any topic. Peter Drucker said our mission in life is to make a positive difference not to prove how smart we are and prove it right we are. We get so lost in proving how smart and right we are. We forget we’re not here on earth to prove that we’re smart or right. We’re here to make a difference, positive difference. Before you speak, breathe and ask yourself, Am I willing at this time to make the investment required to make a positive difference on this topic? If the answer’s yes do it you answer’s no. Let it go. We waste so much of our lives on things where I get changed anyway. Example my condo in New York one of my neighbors was a young woman, Lindsay Lohan if you ever heard of Lindsay Lohan before? Yes, I have. How many millions of hours have been wasted people reading that Lindsay Lohan got drunk. Lindsay Lohan got stoned when Lindsay Lohan was in a car wreck. Well, you know, don’t waste your life on Lindsay Lohan and Donald Trump and the athletic team and all that other nonsense. You know, want to have a great life live your own life. What I always tell people is if you ever think my neighbor Lindsay Lohan is a loser. Remember one thing she’s now wasting her life reading about you?
Allison Dunn 8:44
That is Yeah, to true right.
One of the one of the things that I remember you speaking at a conference about and I don’t remember if it’s in reference to triggers or what got you here won’t get you there is it How do you? What techniques do you use to modify behaviors that aren’t working for executives? So What challenges do you give them that have been effective?
Marshall Goldsmith 9:10
Well, you know, what I do is I interview everyone around my clients. And I write very detailed report about what they’re doing well, and what they need to do better, confidential, 360 degree feedback, average of 18 key stakeholders in my case, then they pick what’s most important to improve if they’re not the CEO, the CEO needs to approve it. If they are the CEO, the board needs to approve it. And then they’re taught to talk to people and say, you know, one on one, I got this feedback. Thank you. Here’s what I feel great about. Thank you for the good comments. I don’t know who said what, but I got a lot of good feedback. And then here’s what I want to get better at. And, for example, I want to be a better listener than they apologize. If I haven’t listened to your those people and pass them sorry, please accept my apologies, no excuse. They’ll make an excuse. Just apologize. And then then feed forward. As for how they can do better in the future, not feedback in the past and say, you know, I want to be a better listener in the future give me ideas to help me and then when the person says sit there Shut up, listen, take notes, say thank you don’t judge and critique, never promised to do everything people say, because leadership’s not a popularity contest. So I’d say, you know, Miss coworker, I can’t do everything everyone says, I’m going to listen and, and follow up and do what I can, I can’t change everything, I get better at this. And I’m going to follow up with you and ask you to help me get better. Very, very simple process. And then I teach people to follow up on a regular basis. And, and as I said, You know, I don’t get paid if they don’t get better and better. There’s no judge by me or my client is around my client.
Allison Dunn 10:46
Can I share a quick personal story with you about that particular piece of feedback? So, and my husband and I were driving in his truck and I made several comments. The directions the turn the stop, and it was not contributing to the loveliness of our Sunday afternoon. So, once we arrived at the restaurants, and he sat across from me, and I was like, are you okay? And he’s and he was not, he was very displeased with me. And I was so taken aback at I thought I was right, in all of the instances of what I’d pointed out because one wasn’t an emotional reaction. One was just a suggestion, whatever, right? adding value. And our compromise on that was, well, thank you for that feedback. And I would like and ask if going forward at any time while driving in the car together, if I overstep that boundary again, would you kindly pointed out so that I can be aware of it and will make me more aware going forward? Do you want to know how many times he’s had to say something to me in the last three years Twice. That’s your one morning. This is your one morning and I’m like, okay, like I really didn’t understand it, but I needed him to show me.
Marshall Goldsmith 12:10
Yeah, yeah, good. Yeah, I you know what all those little directional corrections probably made three minutes difference. Who cares? Truly, you know
Allison Dunn 12:19
what it’s just the twice advice hindsight, right?
Marshall Goldsmith 12:22
Yeah. Let go letting go. I love it.
Allison Dunn 12:28
One of the things that we talked about is when to not ask what how to stop or start saying no, but and however those like combination words, right? How do you suggest people reframe their thoughts so that it can be additive in a positive way?
Marshall Goldsmith 12:48
This is very important.
One of the great people I work with General Eric Shinseki, head of the US Army four star general. So we’re in a room surrounded by two to four star generals say says to me Marshall Who is your favorite customer? I said Sir my favorite customer smart, dedicated, hardworking, driven to achieve creative entrepreneurial cares about the company and customers. Great values high integrity is a stubborn, opinionated, no at all and never wants to be wrong. I said, Sir, do you think you need the generals in this very room they fit such a description? He said Marshall, we have a target rich opportunity. Well, you know, this is great for stubborn people. No, but however because if the first time out of our mouth is no quarters that shot up your butt. What is butter however me disregard everything you said. As you know, I find my clients $20 every time they do this, and they give the money to charity. So one of my clients is stubborn. I’m reviewing is pretty good. But Marshall, is it 20 is no 40 no, no, no. 68 $420 in an hour and a half. At the end of the hour and a half though, said thank you said I had no idea Did that 21 times with you throw it in my face in an hour and a half 21 times? How many times where I’ve done had you not enjoying that my face 50 times 100 times. He said No wonder people think I’m stubborn. He got so much better at being a good listener just learning that. People say Well, what’s your source ends with anything else? There’s only three words there no button. However, if those hundreds of others a lot of other words thousands of other word picks up males don’t use those. Yeah, that’s such good advice. So finding does that work finding finding people as a behavioral change? Yeah, I, I find my clients. You know, I’ve raised over a million dollars for charity finding.
Allison Dunn 14:47
Marshall Goldsmith 14:49
And they hate losing money. So my clients, I charge them $20 for every sin. dollars. These are rich people, mostly. Not all but they’re mostly rich people. Anyway. Like 20 and the money goes to a charity they pick someone gun but 20 bucks 40 bucks 60 bucks. He goes, this is expensive. Is it? Excuse me You made 35 million bucks last year is $20 to the homeless child, you know, shut up. You’re right. I’m going to ask a 50 take. The worst story occurred in India. So I’m coaching Mr. Jim Ral. I don’t feel I’ve been to Delhi, but he built the airport there in Delhi, India. And so I’m coaching him. And Bill Gates flew to India with Warren Buffett to talk rich people into giving money to the poor. So my friend Mr. Jim Rael makes a 340 million dollar donation to poor people in India for charity. 340 million. really generous man. Two days later, I’m coaching. Same charity. He has this expensive. Excuse me, you donated 340 million bucks to the charity two days ago. They’re complaining about 20 bucks. What is wrong with you? Then he goes, Oh, I forgot. Forgot a little bit. I’ve heard God well. The difference is him in front of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett and every newspaper in India writing a check for 340 million bucks and giving it to charity. You know what that’s called? Winning 20 bucks. Losing? Yeah, he doesn’t care about 20 bucks. No, you’re about three or 40 million bucks. Like lose a oh my goodness hard for winners to lose.
Allison Dunn 16:26
I would I can I can see that. Yeah.
Marshall Goldsmith 16:30
When other than other than money like the money game because I would consider that a game right you know you’re winning or losing one of that. One of the most effective training techniques that you’ve used for your clients when trying to break bad habits or, or new habits I guess for that matter. I mean, it’s 2020 year grace lever and feed forward. everybody learns to ask for ideas for the future. So in feed forward, you have to I did this in Russia, by the way with 50,000 people in one stadium We did the experiential activity of feed forward 50,000 people at once is amazing. It was in a football stadium. And it worked. They loved it. They loved it. So that was feed forward work. He learned to say my name is I want to get better at this give me ideas Tell me and then you know, he asked for ideas for the future not feedback about the past. You don’t argue you don’t put people down. You say thank you, someone you treated like a gift. So if you give me a gift, should I say stinky gift, bad gift? I don’t like your gift house. Thank you. Thank you have to use the gift. You always thank people for the gift. And my friend bear Giulia CEO BestBuy. He was ranked number two CEO in America last year and he has every employee in the company do this. They are he says any of them. You say what do you want to get better at? My name is Jim I need to be better at please give me ideas. It’s a great idea. It gets everybody out of that ego and we’re all trying to improve and help each other and so I think it’s a really good idea.
Allison Dunn 18:01
I run engagement and leadership programs. And one of the modules to that is giving and receiving feedback. And it is amazing how many people truly have not received feedback. And they’re really uncomfortable in giving it as a gift. Yeah.
Marshall Goldsmith 18:21
Well, that’s why I like feed forward because feed forward is focused on the future. Right? It’s not what you did wrong. It’s what you can do better.
Marshall Goldsmith 18:28
Yeah. And I think it does give it a completely different perspective of going forward. How can I do better or what can I you know, do to help the team kind of thing? So yeah, it’s beautiful. In under kind of the management theme of my questions, and you’ve shown through research, that consistent follow through is essential for leadership training to actually improve a managers effectiveness. Okay, right. So what are the best ways that a leader can follow up with either their people that they supervise their husband or their coach To find out if those changes are if they’re making the changes necessary.
Allison Dunn 19:04
Well, let’s start with the family and then we’ll go to the work. Okay, cuz
Marshall Goldsmith 19:08
I can take the family, one family, the family dimension, I always have people in my classes do you believe customer satisfaction is important if Oh, yes. Should we ask our customers for input? Oh, Should we listen? Yes. Then I always say, Have you been asking your husband or wife? What can I do to be a better partner? total silence. Well, you know, it’s good to do a work and it’s better to do at home get in the habit of asking your husband or wife How can I be better? And they may say, you know, dear, you have no room for improvement. But as you learn, that’s highly unlikely, right?
Marshall Goldsmith 19:43
We’ve all got a little room for improvement there. And you know, it’s good to do with your kids. When my daughter Kelly was 11. My son Brian was nine to begin asking my children a question. What can I do to be a better father? Probably asking the questions you get the answer. My daughter Kelly says, Daddy, you travel a lot. That’s not what bothers me. What bothers me is the way you act when you come home, talk on the phone, you watch sports, you know, spend time with me. And she said one time it was Saturday and I wanted to go to a party at my friend’s house and mommy did let me go. Head to stone, same time with you. But then she said, You spent no time with me. And that was right. What could I say? Thank you. So what happened is I started measuring how many days has been four hours with my kids. Or out, no TV, no movies with the kids for interacting. 1991 92 days. 1992 110 days 1993 131 1990 435 I made more money. There’s been 135 days for us with the family in years been 20 what I learned, yeah, San Diego Chargers, they don’t care about me. No.
Marshall Goldsmith 20:50
You make more money. I think that’s it. I think that’s an important element to kind of bring out that we work so hard constantly. Right? What is it about that shift that you believe created that energy or that flow for you in your business?
Marshall Goldsmith 21:09
Well, you know, I mean, I didn’t make more money because I spent time with a family. The point is the time I was spending with the family wasn’t time I was investing in business anyway. It was just nonsense, you know, watching sports or TV or some ridiculous meaningless stuff, right? So just cut got rid of that. And that’s what really made the difference. I’m, I’m now very sensitive about how I spend my time. And I had this daily question process, which we can talk about later. But one of my daily questions is, you know, the time I spend on low priority activities, and so every day I started trying to figure out how can I avoid spending time on things that really, they don’t matter? And it’s so easy. What with the internet is the worst? You know, do you ever have to go to Google, you can look somebody uptakes three minutes, three hours later, you’re still online during the why online in first place? Well, all these little triggers is URLs. You’re zooming around here. You forgot why you went online in the first place. It’s very hard in today’s high stimulus world, to have the discipline to ask yourself, Is this a good use of my time? And so much of it isn’t. By the way, people have spent millions of dollars in an effort to get you addicted to media sharp. They’re good at not billions, and they’re good at it. They are very good at it and it is hard not to become addicted. A few years ago, I wrote a an art 20 years ago wrote an article and said within 20 years, media addiction will surpass drug addiction and alcohol addiction combined is a social problem. We’re already there. How media, you issue the average kids is flunking out of school was 50 of ours. A week on non academic media, you know, videos, games is nonsense. So it’s very important to realize this stuff is addictive. And to have the discipline to say, wait a minute, why am I doing this? Right? You know, why am I doing a Google search for the net worth of Lindsay Lohan? Yeah, who cares? Why am I doing?
Allison Dunn 23:25
I think bringing kind of home the the question, which was the consistency part of it. And I want to go back to just commend you when you said using a home example of the time with your with your children, what you did in 1991, how many hours and you started to track it, right? So the consistency of knowing setting the goal of what you wanted to achieve and then actually measuring it. That’s awesome. That’s awesome.
Marshall Goldsmith 23:51
Well, if you don’t measure it, you probably won’t do it or you’ll delude yourself that you’re doing it. Yeah. You will. delude ourselves to believing you’re doing it. But if you don’t measure it, then when you measure it’s sobering. You realize how little you actually do, you know, and how our fantasy of how we spend our time selling has anything to do with how we really spend our time. Yeah.
Allison Dunn 24:15
Marshall Goldsmith 24:17
Yeah. And then and then, you know, it’s also good.
Marshall Goldsmith 24:21
Either, you know, I was teaching a class and a woman said, there’s always something you’ve left out. She said, I’ve been to your class twice, and that everything you ever wrote there’s always something you left out. She says people to do this with.
Marshal Goldsmith 24:35
With I’m sorry. I missed I missed your parents, with your parents, Mom and Dad. Yeah, my dad. She said, I went your class. And then I asked my daughter, how could I be a better? How could I be? How could I be a better mother and we had such a nice conversation. And she said, My daughter asked me how can I be a better daughter.
Marshal Goldsmith 24:56
That’s how I should call my mother. There’s the call My mother and said What can I do to be a better daughter? Mom said you know, dad’s dead politically country in a take a long walk up the road with the mailbox and almost every day there’s nothing in the mailbox. And it makes me so lonely. She simmered means so much to me in the picture a card or something. So on walk to mailbox, I’d see some. She started sending her mother with a picture. But it cost her nothing. So that means her mother. Maybe two years later, she sent me an email. She said my mother just died. The last thing your mother told her died was thank you for doing that. So if your parents are alive, this is a good day for three reasons. One is good for them. too. It’s good for you. Big regret kids have bad days. Why didn’t I thank them for the nice things he did. But I judge them on in 3d. If you have little children. It’s good for your kids. You Those old people on the phone. You’re gonna be those old people’s.
Allison Dunn 26:06
Yes, for sure that that’s very, that’s very beautiful. I love that. One of the things that I was thinking about today is that you know, the whole like leadership and today we have like a complete remote out a significant remote workforce that has not existed in decades before. So something like one in five companies today have completely remote workers. Yes, from a coaching standpoint, from a leadership challenge, what do you see companies need to do when you’re not that in that face to face relationship where it is? remote?
Marshal Goldsmith 26:46
Right? Well, and I again, most of my career remote you know, the people I coach are CEOs and multi billion dollar companies, given my calendar in their calendar if we hadn’t been In person for every meeting, it would be impossible. Surely. So it’s almost all remote. And so what do you do use a telephone you use?
Allison Dunn 27:09
Like we’re doing right zoom, conference, video, conference, telephone, there’s all kinds of things you can do and you really don’t need to be in person for everything.
Marshal Goldsmith 27:21
I would agree with that. I think. I think utilizing every resource that you have is obviously the key to making it successful. Yeah. If you and again, most of my one on one coaching is done by video, conference by phone, whatever.
Allison Dunn 27:40
So, personal question, if you could ask any leader live living today or dead? Any question? What would you ask? Who would you ask and what would you ask them?
Marshal Goldsmith 27:52
Buddha Buddha, I’m in South Africa, Buddhist. So I’d say Buddha. How did you figure this stuff Felt Oh, well.
Allison Dunn 28:04
That’s awesome. What would you say you think?
Marshal Goldsmith 28:07
I don’t know.
Allison Dunn 28:10
That’s awesome. All right. So my favorite topic, let’s talk about executive coaching. Okay. Okay. Um, you said that the number one rule for coaching is do you know what your number one rule is? Right clients?
Marshal Goldsmith 28:22
Well, I totally would agree for me or and you would have great clients. My takeaway on something that I read was Don’t waste your time if a client doesn’t want to change
Marshal Goldsmith 28:31
the same thing, which I think you were absolutely correct. I’m great things were bad clients will say, Yeah, I was in my coaching. As I said, I don’t get paid if they don’t get better. The client I spent the most amount of time with didn’t improve at all and didn’t get paid. client who spent the least amount of time with improve more than anyone I’ve ever coached. 200 people got better and I did get paid. This is very humbling. For those of your listeners with a background in mathematics, I made a chart on one dimension was called the time spent with Marshall Goldsmith it was improvement. There was a clear negative correlation between spending time with me and getting better. So I thought, well, this is a very troubling chart. So I go talk to my client who is the most I spent the least amount of time with. Who was ranked 2014, the greatest leader. Number one great CEO in America, number three greatest leader in the world by by Fortune magazine. Alan Malala, was a CEO of Ford stock went from $1 to 18. When he was there, an amazing man 97% approval rating from all employees in a union company, they worshiped this Wow, just a great leader. So I talked to my friend Alan. I said, Alan, of all the people I’ve ever coached you improved the most, but I spent the least amount of time with you. And that showed me my chart a certain way this chart looks if you’d never met me, you’d really be good. What should I learn about coaching from you? He said two lessons. Lesson One, your biggest challenge is great customer. Yeah, great customers. Your coaching process always works. Yeah, terrible. Words of never works. And number two, never make coaching about yourself and your own ego in a smart you think you are making it about those special people you work with how hard they work, and how proud you are of them. Well, these are great lessons. And he said as the CEO of Ford, my job wasn’t that different. I, you know what he said, I don’t. I don’t design the cars. I don’t build the cars. I don’t sell the cars. They’re great people. He said, Every day I drove to work. I tell myself, leadership’s not about me, leadership’s about him. These are hard lessons to get, by the way, especially for coaches. Let me practice with you. Are you ready? I’m ready to change the leader of a husband that had no interest in changing before. And how did that work out for you?
Marshal Goldsmith 30:45
Not well at all. As a matter of fact, it ended up in a big ugly divorce.
Marshal Goldsmith 30:49
Actually. I’m not. How about mommy and daddy. Have you tried that out? Does this change mommy and daddy who don’t want to change? ever tried that.
Marshal Goldsmith 30:58
How’s that work? It does not work.
Allison Dunn 31:02
It doesn’t know work requires a lot of breathing.
Marshal Goldsmith 31:05
A lot of breathing. I was teaching my class at Dartmouth says that any of you trying to change behavior mommy and daddy, they don’t want to change. I said are you trying to change mommy or daddy? She said, Daddy, so I asked her what’s daddy’s problem? She said he does not have a healthy lifestyle. I asked her how old is daddy? She said 94 years old.
Allison Dunn 31:29
Marshal Goldsmith 31:31
Leave the owner alone is 94 you want to smoke a cigar? Oh man smoke to smoke pot. Who cares? He’s 94 years old.
Allison Dunn 31:43
That’s super funny.
Marshal Goldsmith 31:45
Well, don’t start Don’t worry. Mommy daddy. Ah. Let go Let go about those minor corrections on teenage children. Oh, let’s show the teenage child. Oh yeah. They love that. Don’t think No, no. When the big points up, thingsnot worth it.
Marshal Goldsmith 32:05
So the key is great clients. So in my coaching, my clients are motivated, and they want to change. They’re willing to work hard. And they’re given a fair chance always get better. Yeah. And if they’re not, I’m wasting my time. They’re not gonna get better. Yeah. I was ranked number one executive coach. Now what? Nobody’s watching me coach anybody in the windows that would good coach. I have great clients. I get the number one clients and I tell everybody how wonderful I am. Well, nobody thinks some good coach Because I said so. Right. They think I’m a good coach because all these great people save so they have great clients.
Allison Duunn 32:48
How did you get your first coaching client?
Marshall Goldsmith 32:51
Well, I got into leadership development purely by accident. Then I get into coaching, leadership development, I met a very famous man named Dr. Paul Hersey. He invented situational leadership with Ken Blanchard. And he was kind enough to let me follow him around. So I kind of followed him around and try to learn to do what he did a little bit and one day he became double booked. So I said, Can you do what I do? So I don’t know. Is it can you do what I do is I don’t know. He said, I’m desperate. Can you do it? This? I don’t know. I’ll pay you $1,000 for one day. That was 42 years ago, I was 28 years old. So poor kid from Kentucky. thousand bucks. I was making 15,000 bucks a year. I said, I’m going to give it a shot coach. I went in. I did this program for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company in New York City. They were so pissed off when I showed up, because it wasn’t him. But I got ranked first place of all speakers. So I said, well, it’s in Marshall again. He said, Do you own this again? And I said, Paul, 1000 bucks a day just any day you want. Sign me up. That’s how I got into leadership development in coaching also was pretty much by accident. The CEO said I got this kid Working for us young, smart, dedicated, hard working driven to achieve jerk. He said it would be worth a fortune to me if I could change his behavior. I said I like fortunes is a doubt at work. So maybe it’ll work. I said, I said I got a deal for you owe them for a year if he gets better pay me, you know get better is free. What did you say sold? It was nothing called coaching then by something called coaching. I made this up. There was no field coaching. So that’s how I got into quote coaching before it was called coaching.
Marshall Goldsmith 34:33
When was coaching actually created? Do you know? Do you can you identify when that actually happened? I started doing what I was doing 40 years ago. Okay. Okay, yeah. But I never heard of the term coaching then. Somebody may have been doing it, but I never heard of it.
Allison Dunn 34:50
I’ve got a couple of specific questions around coaching. I think One of them is being being one of the I’d say the world’s top executive coaches who, who coaches you Who do you. I mean, where do you go to to get better coaching?
Marshall Goldsmith 35:13
It is called the daily question process every day. Okay. Tell us about that. The Daily question process, a very simple process. It takes three minutes a day, help you get better at almost anything and cost nothing. And I’m going to teach it to all your listeners. That’s why people are skeptically three minutes a day cost nothing too good to be true. Half the people quit in two weeks. Now quick because it doesn’t work equipped because it does work is really easy to understand. It’s real hard to do. I have a woman called me every day to do this way. My name is Marshall Goldsmith. I got ranked number one coach in the whole world for years. I have a woman call me on the phone every day to do this. Why? I’m too cowardly to do this. I must say I’m too on discipline to do this by myself. And I need help. And you know what is okay? We all need help. I need help. I’m no better Anybody else? And it’s okay. And now how does it work? Well, you write down these questions seven boxes across one for every day of the week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Everyone is answered with a yes no or number. At the end of the week, you get a scorecard. I will warn your listeners in advance that scorecard at the end of the week, might not be quite as beautiful as the corporate values Plexi stuck up on the wall. I’ve been doing this for years. You do this every day. You know, to quickly learn you learn that life is incredibly easy to talk in life is incredibly difficult to live. We do this every day. You don’t look at those talk values. Oh, those are pretty lucky those live values are not so good. One of my questions every day is how many times yesterday Did you try to prove that you were right when it wasn’t worth it?
Allison Dunn 36:59
That’s when it was current question.
Marshal Goldsmith 37:00
How many times did you try to prove you were right when it was not worth it? You know, I don’t I don’t see too many zeros on that column for me. And our federal Professor not prove is right all the time. How many angry or destructive comments do you make about people yesterday? Not seeing enough zeros there either. We want to treat people with respect when we stabbing people in the back. You do this every day. It’s very, very sobering. very sobering. Do you realize is a big difference between talk and do it everybody talks a great game, but they don’t want look at that do game. It’s hard. It’s hard to look in that mirror day after day after day after day after day. And I’m not exaggerating. The reason to have someone called me every day is I’m smart enough to realize how hard it is.
Allison Dunn 37:54
I know I wouldn’t do it by myself. It’s too hard.
Allison Dunn 37:59
Yeah. Do you? I do remember you training on on that. And I’m just curious, is there is that identified in any of your books that you would point? triggers? Okay. Okay, fantastic. I’m just curious. Did you change your seven questions at all for the 2020? New Year or are you pretty? You’ve got this, this locked down. It’s the seven most modified a little bit. I modify some of my question. They changed the process a little bit. I’m interested. I’m going to institute a whole new coaching program now, starting in 2020.
That’s exciting. My friend
Marshal Goldsmith 38:37
I mentioned with CL forte. He has a brilliant management system. He and I are doing a new book together. He is a brilliant management system. And we’re combining Mike, my coaching process with his management system.
Allison Dunn 38:54
That’s exciting. And so that’s being rolled out now.
Marshal Goldsmith 38:57
Every well No, the book will be good for a while but I’m doing it now. Every week, the thinker’s 50 top a coaches, all eight of us are going to talk in a conference like this every week about how we can do better. I think that’s a very positive thing. Number one is top thinkers 50 top paid coaches in the world every week, sends a lot of messages message. Number one is we’re not better than anyone else. We’re just humans like a recipe player. Number two, we need help. And number three, we’re not competing and showing off and trying to prove how better we are. We’re all just trying to help each other. I think for the field of coaching, it’s very positive.
Allison Dunn 39:43
I would agree. What would you attribute to your success snowball, for lack of a better term? Build a brand, build a brand. Okay. Okay.
Marshal Goldsmith 40:00
Most coaches are many coaches. I don’t know most, many coaches are excellent coaches, and terrible business people. Many coaches are really good coaches, but they’re really bad business people. And the average ICF coach makes what, $35,000 a year from coaching. I make less than a bag boy, it’s embarrassing how little they make. It’s terrible. They’re terrible business people. Yet to realize there’s the coaching side and the business side. Many coaches have incredible problems with self promotion. Have you ever had any self promotion phobia yourself?
Allison Dunn 40:39
I have, as a matter of fact. Go over it. Yeah.
Marshal Goldsmith 40:47
Have you ever had this thought? My good work should speak for itself. Have you ever had that thought
Allison Dunn 40:53
I had. Well, I think everyone has had that thought for sure. Let me know
Marshal Goldsmith 41:00
Never had that thought. That is a silly thought. If your good work should speak for itself, no company would need a marketing function. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So good works like God’s not gonna fly out of the sky and good work right? You gotta you gotta be your own marketing department. So but man, if you’re not, you know, I commend you for doing this, this podcast Why? I mean, is good, very good show some curry your partner and getting out there and they’re so my advice is be the world’s expert at something. Be the world’s expert at some. Don’t try to be the world’s expert on the world’s expert at helping successful leaders achieve positive long term change in behavior. That’s it. I’m not the expert at strategy or getting organized or any of those other fields. I am the world’s expert at that. If you do a Google search in quotes, helping successful What? Caught 500 hits 450 or meet and the rest of the world is 50 it’s me 450 stuff world 51 money well game not my game figure out your game and forget I want you the world’s experts and dry and really focus on building your own brand.
Allison Dunn 42:25
I love that that’s what your your search terms are known for. And you’ve just really honed that in That’s fantastic. Do you have any other How did you how did you build a brand that created that?
Marshal Goldsmith 42:40
You know, we’re very fortunate my father he’s the guy that taught me to do that. He’s the one that told me is it look just great people you’re gonna win. Focus your whole coaching on great people my book, what got you here won’t get you there. What’s the subheading helping successful people get even more But that’s what the book is about. It’s not fixing losers. It’s helping successful people get even better. Well, that’s what the book is about. Now, there’s nothing wrong with doing other things. I don’t do those other things though. I do this. And then you have credibility because you’re not pretending to do everything for everyone.
Allison Dunn 43:19
Right? Yeah. Well, I am I, you are someone that I follow and that I just tremendously look up to for the impact that you’re having. Not on not only on the coaching industry, but on the business industry of leadership. So So thank you.
Marshal Goldsmith 43:40
Well, you know, I give everything away all my material you may copy, share, download, duplicate using church charity business, anywhere you want to, it’s all go to my website, www Marshall Goldsmith, calm. I’ve got 300 videos, hundreds of articles so free. Yeah,
Allison Dunn 43:57
that’s awesome. And that kind of you just put that out there. Is that the best way for people to follow you? Where are you most active? I see you all the time on LinkedIn.
Marshal Goldsmith 44:06
I have, like 1.3 million followers on LinkedIn. Yeah. So LinkedIn is the best. I would go to LinkedIn, go to my website. It’s not hard. You know, YouTube, go to my YouTube channel and add on YouTube. I’ve had over 3 million views of my videos, you know, and the nice thing it’s all free, right?
Marshal Goldsmith 44:28
Absolutely. Sometimes people send me notes from corporations saying that I need approvals like I approve everything anyway. But you need approvals happy to sign something. I mean, on the website says it’s all free.
Allison Dunn 44:40
Yeah, I love your abundance. That is really fantastic.
Marshal Goldsmith 44:47
I’m getting, I’m getting older. I’m 70 almost 71 and, you know, we’re all gonna be equally did hear, so might as well do a little good.
Marshal Goldsmith 44:58
Well, I think you’re doing a lot of
Allison Dunn 45:00
y’all do a little good. Well, I’m here. So.
Marshal Goldsmith 45:04
Allison Dunn 45:07
In sort of my wrap up thoughts you’ve written you said 40 to 141 books, and you’re working on another one right now. So 42 on its way. And you know, my two top go twos are triggers and what got you here won’t get you there?
Marshall Goldsmith 45:23
Allison Dunn 45:24
Those are the best ones.
Marshal Goldsmith 45:26
Yeah, I’d recommend those two.
Allison Dunn 45:27
Okay. Well, that was going to say, Is there another book that you’d recommend that I should suggest?
Marshall Goldsmith 45:32
The other ones I’ve written that I would recommend are Mojo Mojo. Okay. It’s a good one. And then for women how women rise. Sally hawkinson is the lead author. I did that with her. Yeah. Yeah, she’s about the way the top four books I did all have one thing in common. They’re all incredibly well written. Now. What can I say that without bragging, I didn’t write any of them. Write a lot of my ideas, but I don’t write them. I’m a good writer. But my three biggest selling books, which are what got you here won’t get you there Mojo and triggers. Were all written by my friend Mark writer. He’s my agent and co writer. He writes the books, I have most of the ideas and he does the writing. He is a phenomenal writer. We’re writing a new book together now called earned life. He is an amazing writer, and he’s a great agent. So we split everything 5050 we have a great partnership, and another learning for your listeners. Don’t feel a need to do it yourself. I didn’t write my books. It’s okay. It’s okay. We split everything 5050 I got the ideas. I get the brand. I give him ideas. He writes, we work together. We have a book. And he’s my agent. Our book triggers he came to me said Marshall. I have a new idea for this book. I think we should call it triggers triggers. What do you think I said that’s a stupid idea. Triggers ism. dumbest idea I’ve ever heard of couriers selling a gun or horse. He said, How dumb is it? I said, it’s so dumb. I can’t believe you brought it up. He said, You know, I’ve just been to the publisher, I had offered $1.2 million advance for a book called triggers. How do you feel about that book? Hey, let’s do that thing. Turned out. Number one New York Times best. Oh, God, so much for my nose. Hey, good to have good partners. It
Allison Dunn 47:29
Sounds like it is that’s a great story.
Marshall Goldsmith Speaker 47:36
Yeah please, Coach project. So I went to a program called design the life you love woman said Who are your heroes? My heroes were kind of generous people are great teachers. She said you should be more like them. I’m pretty generous. I thought I could do better. I decided to adopt 15 people teach them all I know for free. And the only prices when they get old. They have to do the same thing. I made a little Video and put it on LinkedIn and said, my name is Marshall I got ranked number one leadership thinker. Number one coach number one book, I’m going to adopt 15 people teacher Molyneux for free. And the only price is when you get all you have to promise to do the same thing. I thought 100 people would apply so far, over 18,000 people applied for adoption. Now, I’ve adopted over 200 people, and it’s just been an amazing project. So I’m guessing coaching for you. Look at the list of people now they’re adopting people. Find some person you really like and get them to adopt you. And then later, you adopt some What else? That’s beautiful. And the people are amazing. He’s like president World Bank and the former head of the Girl Scouts and head of the Mayo Clinic and Dean of Harvard Medical School and I just taught got a text from pal Gasol, a pro basketball player and just an amazing, amazing group of people in the whole thing. Is with no money. It’s all free. And the only rules are there’s no money. There’s no guilt. There’s no expectation. You just help others.
Allison Dunn 49:10
Thank you for all that you do, Marshall.
Marshall Goldsmith Speaker 49:13
Allison Dunn 49:15
I think I think that that sort of, you’ve kind of answered all my questions and you’ve just added that extra bonus really abundant perspective. Is there anything I didn’t think to ask you that you wanted to also bring up?
Marshall Goldsmith 49:27
One final advice? Yeah. My only my best advice. Take a deep breath. Imagine you’re 95 years old, you’re getting ready to die. What advice would the old person have for you? What advice would that old person have for you? Whatever you think about do that. So friends of mine interviewed old people. on personal professional side three types of advice number one on the personal side, be happy now. Not next week on next month. Be happy now. I don’t know for you, but I’m guessing you have many blessings. Yes. You know many people I work with you have friends who have family health. Compared to me you have you know, don’t get so busy chasing what you don’t have, you can’t see what you do have learning point number two is friends and family. Don’t get so busy climbing the corporate ladder you forget the people that love you. And then number three, have a dream, go for it. As you don’t go for it when you’re 35 you may not win your business advice in much different, have fun. Life is short, do whatever we can do to help people. And then the final advice is to go for it old people we almost never regret the risk we take and fail will always regret the risk that we fail to take. So finally, thank you so much for inviting me to talk with you.
Allison Dunn 50:45
Thank you Marshall. truly a pleasure. And I I again, I appreciate everything that that you produce, and I look forward to continuing to see your new work as they come out this year.
Marshall Goldsmith 50:58
Thank you so much.
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